Offer an alternative calculation for the normalised internal inductance, $l_i$
#3763
Replies: 18 comments
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In GitLab by @mcoleman on Jun 20, 2023, 15:37 I've just realised I'm not allowed to push code to this repository. |
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In GitLab by @mcoleman on Jun 21, 2023, 08:14 |
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In GitLab by @mkovari on Jun 21, 2023, 14:57 I wouldn't rush into this ideally. @ajpearcey @mcoleman There is already an option for the user to specify More generally, The PROCESS formula relates if (iprofile == 1) then
alphaj = qstar/q0 - 1.0D0
rli = log(1.65D0 + 0.89D0*alphaj) ! Tokamaks 4th Edition, Wesson, page 116
end if(As far as I know I certainly couldn't tell you whether the formulae in the code are any good. |
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In GitLab by @mcoleman on Jun 22, 2023, 08:03 I mean the above calculation is totally flawed. The q dependency is hidden by that (in)equality. My problem is that to calculate I'm happy to sit on this until I can think of a better way of coming up with a calculation of All I can say is that the present empirical fit is not fit for EU-DEMO purposes. I've also got fits to ASTRA data for |
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In GitLab by @mcoleman on Jun 28, 2023, 13:49 Alright, sorry for the delay, I've been meaning to write this up for a few days. My faith in PROCESS profiles is basically zero, so I have been trying to get Note that if you're running PLASMOD, there are plenty of easy and convenient 1-D integrals that could be added to calculate If my above flawed calculation didn't convince you because of a lack of explicit I found a cute approximation to If you take (Freidberg, 13.159, pp 406): Noting that Which leaves me with: which is a little inconvenient as it depends on minor radius, as opposed to aspect ratio. You can of course take different approximations for Shown as li proposal(2) here (where I have chosen to use Keen to hear thoughts on this. Is it possible there is some definition issue with the Wesson fit? It's about a factor 2/3 off, 1/2 if you're being optimistic. |
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Matti, Sorry, I didn't see your comments as I wasn't tagged. We seem to be going round in circles. The formula for If most of the current flows near the edge, then I am prepared to open Freidberg if you insist, but why change the habit of a lifetime? I have to say to I preferred the Gitlab rendering - Githib shows the equations very black. |
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The primary purpose of The primary motivation to change the calculation of This fit, incidentally, makes use of All this said, there is a way to run PROCESS with a fixed internal inductance, so it's a take it or leave it job as you suggest. It's just a shame because when we perform scans where the pulse length is of interest, we're ignoring any influence on internal inductance that would vary with some of the scanned parameters. I have my github on in dark mode and I see the equations as white on black, as with the rest of the text. |
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Hi @mcoleman, Referring to Freidberg's formula 13.181 (p. 417). It is based on the large aspect ratio (as you say). It also assumes a particular current profile:
and the equation for the vector potential is indeed expressed in terms of the major radius. This is odd, since I thought the current density was a flux function, so it depends on the flux (or, loosely, the minor radius) not the major radius. The formula also assumes a particular plasma shape - possibly the half-ellipse shown on p. 415. Freidberg introduces a new definition of |
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The second term in In the first definition of I vaguely remember trying out this second term, 1, and the actual term with elliptical integral. The results varied, but not that significantly. This was a while ago now, so I'm afraid I have lost my workings. Not really my field, but I don't think plasma current density is really a flux function, or better said a function solely of flux. It might be a matter of terminology, but the current density does depend on the major radius. |
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@mcoleman. I never claimed to know much about this, but it is embarassing to discover my knowledge is actually negative. So the plots that people show of current density versus flux are actually The formula we use for the external inductance seems to be fairly soundly based*, given an elliptical cross-section. To prevent integrating over portions of the same volume twice it would be nice to use a formula for internal inductance that is based on the same shape - not the case for Freidberg if he has indeed used the D-shape in Figure 13.37. However, I agree that we shouldn't be using a formula that overestimates by 50%. I also agree that it is good to use a calculation that depends in a sensible way on aspect ratio and elongation, and that the current profile is less important at this stage. The next step (!?) is to explain why there are three or more different definitions of What I am saying is that possibly we should use the Freidberg formula, but ideally we should check our values of both internal and external inductance against those from detailed calculations. Are you able to do this?
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Hi @mkovari , All I can say re current density "profile" is that, as far as they are in G-S solvers, generally Some time ago we had a discussion with CREATE at EUROfusion regarding external inductance. The Hirshman and Neilson calculation is totally fine. There are two approaches of calculating achievable pulse length, one that uses external inductance, and one that does not. In both these approaches, the definitions of internal inductance are the same, so there are no issues. CREATE believe, and I agree, that it is simpler and easier to calculate the achievable pulse length without going down the external inductance calculation route. That said, when I looked at this in PROCESS, and given the time constraints we were operating under, it became clear that there was no point in changing anything (the results were basically identical). The multiple definitions of dimensionless internal inductance, |
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Surely what matters for the inductive flux consumption during ramp-up is the total plasma inductance, and this is calculated as internal + external? |
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@mkovari, long story short, I think you can ignore this. As far as I can tell, the PROCESS calculations for values associated with the pulse length are remarkably good, even if the internal inductance does not match up with what more detailed codes say. There may be some difference in definition of "normalised internal". Apologies for probably having created entropy. |
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OK, I will close the issue. It's a pity we can't sort this out in a vaguely self-consistent way, but hey. |
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The PhD thesis of Tobias Hartmann has helpful info. Since we very much do not have a circular cross-section, we really want to get rid of the Process formula: Also, we usually use a pedestal, so the plasma current density profile does not have the "parabolic" form. Indeed, there may be a large amount of bootstrap current flowing in the pedestal, reducing |
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There is another formula in Fusion Plasma Physics (Stacey, 2nd ed, eq 19.7, p. 589), although no derivation or justification is given: This contrasts oddly with the PROCESS formula: The Stacey formula is not correct. For a very reasonable value of |
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Hi @mkovari, On leave, so I don't have access to papers etc., but as far as I can tell, they are effectively equivalent. If you take the safety factor on axis, |
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Sorry - I meant to write 5, not 1. My point is that since everybody always quotes |
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In GitLab by @mcoleman on Jun 20, 2023, 15:29
Summary
At present, PROCESS exclusively uses an empirical fit for$l_i$ , found in e.g. ("Tokamaks" 4th Edition, Wesson, page 116), and ("Fusion" 2nd edition, Stacey, page 53). In the latter, one can see that the data come from DIII-D in the 1990's. I have no idea what kind of plasmas they were running back then, but it's fair to say that this fit gives high values for $l_i$ compared to what we typically see in larger, higher power, future tokamak reactors.
For EU-DEMO machines, PROCESS typically gives$l_i > 1.15$ , compared to values from transport solvers of 0.7-0.9.
Obviously, PROCESS' profiles are not particularly to be trusted, so any$\rho$ -based calculation will fall over pretty quickly. Instead, I propose an energy-based calculation, which is akin to ITER's $l_{i}(3)$ definition:
Noting that:
Of course, if$\langle B_{\theta}\rangle = \mu_{0}I_{p}/P$ , where $P$ is the perimeter of the LCFS, as appears to be the case most of the time in PROCESS, then this simplifies down to a purely geometric relation:
For a typical EU-DEMO, using this I get$l_i \approx$ 0.8.
Given that this approach to calculating$l_i$ is more-or-less what ITER is using, and captures at least some of the important terms (with the notable exception of $q$ ), I think it should be at least offered as an alternative to the Wesson/Stacey empirical fit.
Checklist
After implementing issue do the following
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