Mk2-Mk4 Module Balance

[BeaulieuT]

I really enjoy the Mk2+ module system in pyAL, but I think it could use some tweaks. From spending time in the discord, it seems most people don't make modules past mk2, and I think there's a good reason for this.

Mk2 modules seem to be in a really good spot in my opinion. Pretty substantial gains, usually not terribly expensive resource wise, but still requires time investment to set up. I feel well rewarded when I get mk2 modules in mk2 buildings, it's usually a pretty big boost.

Mk3 and Mk4 modules I think could use some tweaking. Now for reference I'm only at py3, so I've only made a handful of mk3 modules (moss, fawogae, vrauk, ulrics, and trits I think), and haven't made any mk4, so I can't speak to that. But in my experience, the mk3 modules cost A LOT more than mk2, and the speed gains are not quite as large of a jump as the jump from mk1 - mk2. I don't think they're as worthwhile of a time investment to set up, as the gains are less and the cost is more.

What I would like to see is some extra incentive to engage with mk3 and mk4 modules, even if it is very minor. I think it would be nice if there was some unique benefit to mk3 and mk4 instead of just another flat boost of speed. I think there's not a lot of options for unique boosts (a small prod boost is all I can think of) but even if running a full mk3 (or mk4) setup gave you a total +5% prod over the mk2 setup, I think it would be a better incentive / reward than the current setup.

I think the high cost for mk3 and mk4 is good, I like that approach; I just wish there was a better reward for time and resource investment. Some of the mk3 modules Ive made, I haven't even bothered to put into machines because the effect is not that impactful, mk2 does the job plenty fine. Maybe I'm wrong and theyre more impactful than i realize, I just wanted to give my point of view so far.

Overall though, love the module system and think it's a great part of py.

[darko-dll]

I second the sentiment that while upgrades as a mechanic are fun, the rewards don't scale with investment, especially later on.

Simik is a particularly egregious example that I was going to report as a bug, where it takes 1M logistic science and 500k red chips to go from mk2 to mk4. Here is a screenshot from YAFC https://i.imgur.com/qQGsGAi.jpeg , for total ingredients to craft four mk3s and mk4s (what is needed to start breeding them). This is on average, and if you're unlucky it can take several times more - e.g. tuuphra mk3 can be expected to proc after 250 tries with 0,4% chance, but it took me over 900.

Here is what's needed to get every mk3 alien, except those where mk3 isn't required for mk4: https://i.imgur.com/B08Jkg3.jpeg . Other than aforementioned simiks, some numbers get a bit high but if stretched over 100-200 hours it's not that bad.

Here are all the mk4 aliens: https://i.imgur.com/iyEqpnZ.jpeg . The costs are now starting to get a bit much for a smaller benefit (mk3 relative to 4 is only +33%). Notably: 800k ralesias for guar, 30k zinc finger fusion proteins (evenly divided), 50k great alien samples for fawogae mk3 -> navens/xyhiphoe mk4...

Personally I'd like to see more reasonable costs, or higher rewards for reaching mk4.

Disclaimer: I'm playing on Factorio 1.1 and last py version that works on it, so apologies if some of this is out of date. Here is a YAFC profile that I used - rename extension to .yafc

[notnotmelon]

I would argue that the MK3 and MK4 module uplifting are the most repetitive and worst mechanics in py.

• They bloat the tech tree with repetitive technologies.
• They provide minimal gains compared to MK2.
• Some uplifting recipes are extremely expensive.

Here is my plan that should hopefully resolve this.

• Add new sets of infinite techs that are not researched by science pack.
• These are instead researched by crafting creature modules.
• Crafting a mk01 grants 1 point, mk02 grants 5 points, mk03 grants 25 points, and mk04 grants 100 points.
• Each tier of this infinite tech grants +10% productivity to both uplifting recipes and some various key recipes in the chain (such as slaughtering)
• The cost of this infinite tech scales exponentially.
• This mechanic could also be used for other resources such as intelligent units, modules, or infrastructure.

Here is a concrete example of the mechanic: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/progressive-productivity?from=search

[protocol-1903]

I agree with @BeaulieuT that the mechanic should only be present for mk2-4, as playing with a science multiplier or something else that requires you to produce a lot of materials would make you get a lot of free productivity much faster than a normal playthrough.
On the thought about a mk2-4 sink, can't you slaughter/compost most of them?

I know this has been talked about before, but i think the crafting speed progression through mk1-4 should be as follows:
mk01 = 1
mk02 = 2
mk03 = 4
mko4 = 8
with a total 5% prod increase per level after mk01

Still think its a great way to improve AL long term, I wonder if similar systems can be applied to other places

[WarlordFTW]

I can provide an idea for mk2-4 sinks. I think you could do spoilage shenanigans with them. now ideally you would make them into a randomly enhanced version. but since spoilage must be certain, you can offer that as a conversion recipe. where a higher mk creature can be turned into one of the enhanced creatures. with mk4 having a 100% chance to enhance, mk3 having a 75% chance to enhance and mk 2 having a 50% chance to enhance. if it doesn't enhance it reduces mk by one. I don't have a suggestion in particular if the enhancement type here should be entirely random or offer several different weighted random recipes, where you choose what you want, but there's a chance you get the wrong type.

This can offer a late-game option where you can just breed your mk4 creatures to get enhanced creatures instead of having to genetically engineer them yourself, but at a different kind of expense

[protocol-1903]

This can offer a late-game option where you can just breed your mk4 creatures to get enhanced creatures instead of having to genetically engineer them yourself, but at a different kind of expense

I think this would be an interesting, albeit annoying to program addition. The option to produce Mk2.5 modules is intriguing, but I think the issues lies with the fact that full sets of modules bring the same Mk of machine up to a specific integer crafting speed. Messing with the module speed of any of the modules throws off the crafting speed entirely, which might be undesirable for a lot of players that like seeing nice round numbers. It could be mathed out to figure how much of an improved module would just increase speed to the next integer, but it would be a ton of work. However, it would be an interesting way to augment progression by offering small buffs to the current level of modules, which get better as the base module Mk increases. Perhaps the augments could be increasing each of the relevant stats (speed, productivity, energy consumption) at an amount relative to the number of total modules in an AL building (so something like bhoddos with just one module slot at Mk1 would receive a much higher buff to the bhoddos module compared to something like tree farms filled with more less enhanced modules totaling to the same amount)

You could call this mechanic genetic modification, and it's costs increase relative to the Mk of the module being modified, but the benefits increase similarly. I could see a set of recipes where the player is trying to enhance an animal with a specific stat, but it has a 30% chance to kill the animal entirely, 30% chance to do nothing, 10% chance to give it the right stat, and 10% chance to give it the wrong stat. Of course, you would need some form of specialized ingredients to complete procedures. Those ingredients might be different depending on the stat desired, and would (probably) also change/increase depending on the Mk of the affected module.

This would also introduce an interesting progression step where, since the number of module slots increases relative to the Mk level, the number of enhanced modules required to fill a machine increases as the tech level of the player increases. Alongside the normal uplifting process, this would be a cool optional mechanic similar to TURDs. If implemented, I think it might be best to balance progression around having normal Mk1-4 modules, but have it slightly tilted so that if the player wanted to speed things up, having enhanced modules would be a good option while still having normal Mk1-4 progression. It might also be warranted to limit enhancement to Mk2-4 modules, so that Mk1 modules are the simple, starter modules and do not have any additional mechanics attached to them. That is mostly to help new players get oriented without throwing them in the deep end. It also opens the door to lowering uplifting costs, so that uplifting is easier but then you have the optional (but more expensive and powerful) genetic modification option if you need just a bit more power.

[WarlordFTW]

@protocol-1903 I think you misunderstood what I meant by enhanced. I don't mean enhance as in mk2.5, because tho that is an interesting idea, it's a PITA to code and it doesn't provide a sink for extra mk2-4 creatures. I meant enhanced as in the enhanced for butchering creatures that exist already in game unlocked at production science. So what I'm saying is, instead of having to use enhancing agents on regular creatures, you could also just process your excess higher mark creatures into those. Gives you a reason to craft more of those

[protocol-1903]

@WarlordFTW ahhh i see. Still, given the length of a full py run, it would be interesting to see a cheaper uplifting route with a more expensive than the current uplifting enhancement option